I haven't co-worked before, but I see the appeal of it. I think it's strange to say that most freelancers work because they can't work with others, from my perspective, ability to get along with others is even more important as a freelancer because your clients are much more likely to walk away than for you to be fired... To me, though, the appeal of co-working is to be working in an environment where others are doing active and interesting stuff in related fields, to again have that sort of face to face camaraderie. Course, I haven't yet because it's easier and cheaper to work from home, but I would like to try it. :)
micah
· 1 year ago
That's the theory, of course. The truth is that the people in a coworking space end up being pretty similar.
And I didn't say that freelancers don't do client relations well, but generally, they don't do interpersonal relations well nor do they, generally, enjoy working in large groups or teams. Freelancing carries a bit of ego (no one can do this as well as me, or I don't need the help) which makes group dynamics difficult.
Tom Chikoore
· 1 year ago
I totally agree with you all the way Micah, especially with your last point. I find out that I do my best work outside, on my deck even though there is a lot of noise from my neighbors AC units humming all the time. I find that, that is my sanctuary, that allows me to think clearly, be most creative and be most productive. The office is not really for me.
micah
· 1 year ago
Tom, you are more than welcome to join me in my backyard anytime.
Coworking is an attempt to recreate an office environment in a controlled way. But these are people who say "I can't work in an office." How can coworking help that? It can't.
Aaron Brazell
· 1 year ago
I think you're full of crap. Talk to Alex Hillman of Indy Hall then come back and talk to me.
micah
· 1 year ago
do you have a blog? who are you?
Aaron Brazell
· 1 year ago
Also, you ignore the fact that "coworking" is more about community and collaboration. What you're referring to is renting "executive office space" which is not the same thing at all.
micah
· 1 year ago
Well then, Mr. IKNOWITALL, pontificate. What I am talking about is coworking. and Coworking sucks.
Andrew Feinberg
· 1 year ago
Micah, let's play a word game.
replace the buzzword "coworking" with "outsourced office space management for freelance and small business."
that, you can sell.
micah
· 1 year ago
Andrew I love it. Very funny. Coworking still sucks.
andrew_feinberg
· 1 year ago
Micah, let's play a word game.
replace the buzzword "coworking" with "outsourced office space management for freelance and small business."
that, you can sell.
lksugarman
· 1 year ago
Yup. I co-work from home w/ kitty assistants to distract me and the ocean outside my big window. Oh, yes, I have the big corner office w/ a huge window, private full bath and kitchen. I love being able to control my environment, what goes on in it, and who has access. Tried the co-working thing. It was a disaster with a psycho, smelly, noisy, foul-mouthed asshole on the other side of the divider. No thank you!
gruen
· 1 year ago
1. Not in every city. It's important for many people, myself included, to separate work areas from play areas. I find that I'm much more efficient somewhere that's not in the same physical area where I sleep... whether that's Starbucks or otherwise. You won't find any games on my MacBook for the very same reason. Secondly, not sure there's much truth in your "truth". 2 - 3. Exactly.
jsayles
· 1 year ago
The key point you are hitting on here is that no one solution works for everyone. You might think I'm biased since I run a coworking space in Seattle, but I know we are not for everyone. Even within the circle of folks that LOVE coworking each space has it's charms and detractors. We are simply an alternative and the folks that love us come in, and the folks that don't stay in their prospective back yards. Even better they invite us over sometime to drink a beer and meet the cats.
Oh, and lksugarman, I totally ran into that guy in an Italian restaurant in NYC and vowed never to return to the city. I even avoid pasta all together just to make sure I don't run into him again. Glad to hear you are safe now!
micah
· 1 year ago
Well said. I guess that what rankles me around the concept of coworking is that it is somehow a replacement for collaborative working (which the name suggests). The truth is most coworking spaces have become tables and chairs. Maybe a phone and fax, and a conference room or two.
A true coworking space has a varied group of people that in working together are better than working apart.
jsayles
· 1 year ago
What you describe is a business center. There are many definitions of "coworking" floating around but I assert the defining characteristic of a coworking space is one where it's about the people in the office not the equipment. We are a business, and we have all the stuff people need to do their jobs, but we are not in the stuff rental business. It's a difficult distinction to make, especially in a culture where everyone is focused on the stuff. We actually avoid the topic of defining coworking in words because seeing our space in person is the best way to feel what we are talking about. There are a lot of business centers around, and with all the press coworking has been getting many of them are jumping on the word. There are also many coworking spaces and you will know in an instant what kind of space you are in when you walk in the door and talk with the folks running the place.
Todd Sundsted
· 1 year ago
> A true coworking space has a varied group of people that in working together are better than working apart.
You nailed it! This is exactly the feature that attracts many people, whether they are coworking at a local Jelly or in a dedicated coworking space. And there are spectacular, concrete examples in play right now of the kind of collaborative work that can come out of this environment. It's worth noting that real estate does play a role -- this isn't virtual -- and in some markets (NYC, London) real estate plays a very important role.
TedC
· 1 year ago
Sure it's about ideas and creating and some people work better alone. It's also about solidarity. Often, like in Philadelphia, there are barriers and obstacles to free agency. CoWorking is a form of empowerment at the community, economic, and political level that isn't easily achieved alone with a blog and a backyard. Personally, the energy and ideas I've gotten from two CoWorking days with some really, really intelligent and creative people makes going it alone in my yard seem less than optimal. Some people don't need this, but it's nice to know it is there for people who do.
The "collaborative" and "community" aspects really kick in two ways, at least for us at BLANKSPACES: 1. We have a slew of events here, some hosted by us; others who rent our space to run their own events/mixers. 2. People here are already HIRING each other. In this way, this is an undisputed scenario in which a variety of people work together better than apart.
Jerome
Meg
· 1 year ago
Freelancers aren't across-the-board bad at interpersonal relationships any more than people who work with a lot of other people in a group environment are across-the-board good at them. Creating your own position/offered skill set/business (which is what freelancing is) implies some ability to be independent, but that doesn't make you awkward by default.
I know plenty of awkward people who work on teams, and plenty of "God's gift to the universe" people who work on teams, too.
There's no standard profile for the ability to freelance other than your capacity to offer a particular product via contract within a negotiated schedule.
Brent Ozar
· 1 year ago
If coworking was what you described, then yeah, I'd agree. Having telecommuted for years and just recently started coworking, though, I can tell you why it doesn't suck:
1. The million places that offer free wifi don't have desks. They have couches, they have sofa tables and they have tables, but not a real work environment. Think blaring overhead music, bad lighting, and a struggle to find an electric outlet.
2. My clients have been surprised at the coworking concept and impressed by the forward-thinking nature of it - but then again, you and I might have different types of clients. I aim for the kind of clients who will embrace new technology, new trends and new ideas. You might not, and that's cool too. There's room for both of us.
3. I produce a better product when I'm exposed to more disciplines than just my own. In coffee shops, I'm exposed to mothers with screaming babies, weirdo meetups, and homeless people. Those people do not improve my products. At http://carolinecollective.cc/ I'm exposed to people who are starting businesses, go-getters who are actually going and getting - not just running errands.
micah
· 1 year ago
Brent, I ran a search marketing firm, so I would assume that my old clients are similar to your current clients. And way to slip the URL in there...impressed! :)
Alex Hillman
· 1 year ago
Jacob, Todd, Ted, and Brent have said pretty much everything I would have.
The fact of the matter is, IndyHall existed before we had a single desk to share. And if the desks went away, our community of creative collaborators would still exist.
I hope that you get to hang out in a "real deal" coworking community (note, I said community, not office) and then write a new essay of 3 rules of why coworking doesn't suck.
And then, if it doesn't work for you, let us know why. I know it doesn't work for everyone. But it certainly doesn't suck for the 40+ people in philadelphia who use our facility every day, and the dozens of people who've been impacted by a stronger creative community in Philadelphia.
I understand you're on the east coast at the moment. Any interest in swinging by IndyHall to meet the crew? I'd love to go out for a beer and talk shop.
micah
· 1 year ago
As I sit here with Aaron Brazell in his Indy Hall tshirt, I am getting it from all directions! I am on the East Coast for a short visit, which will preclude me from getting to Philly, but I promise to add Philly to my itinerary in the next couple of months, and will swing by Indy Hall. As long as you promise a visit to Drinkers Tavern.
And, of course, I would be willing to eat crow, if there is crow to eat. Frankly, I expect that my mind will not be changed as coworking sucks, whether you call it a community or not.
Alex Hillman
· 1 year ago
Ha! You guys are too much.
Drinkers is a deal. Look forward to meeting you in the future.
Aaron Brazell
· 1 year ago
I tried to warn him. He wouldn't listen. :)
micah
· 1 year ago
even as a non-drinker, I love that place.
innonate
· 1 year ago
Just a note about client visits. It's because you're in Colorado. Seriously. I have people visiting me 2 or 3 times a week, and I would not want to have them meet me at my apartment.
micah
· 1 year ago
I think it depends on the type of business. I had a couple visits because I always offered to go to the client versus the opposite. Clients like the fact that they dont have to travel if possible.
Its not that I am Colorado and you are in NYC, its about how I managed client interaction. Now, if the clients require seeing your servers, technology, people, etc. it gets much more difficult (understandably so), but the important thing to remember is that I am in control, not the clients.
spike gillespie
· 1 year ago
i'm a freelancer in austin and one of my gigs is writing the blog for a soon-to-be-opened coworking space, launchpad coworking (http://launchpadcoworking.com). i work home, alone, the vast majority of the time. but i also cowork sometimes. it allows me to bounce ideas off of other people. it keeps the dogs from resenting me for talking to them too much. and it helps shake my etch-a-sketch clean when i've had too much alone time. the difference between a coffee shop and a coworking space is that in a coworking space it is accepted that-- unless someone has up a do not disturb sign or some equivalent-- then they're most likely down with taking a little time to talk, be it about the weather, work ideas, or where to get a good meal. as an aside, i want to point out in my case that getting along well with people is crucial to my work as an author/journalist/blogger who has a side job performing weddings. i do not spend tons of time with the people i write about and the couples whose ceremonies i perform. however the time i do spend with these people is really important and i have no interest in them coming to my house. for now, we meet in coffee shops or by phone. but i'm really looking forward to having a better space in which to meet them. not to "trick" them into thinking i have a corporate office-- no thank you. just so i know i can have a space reserved and waiting for me and i won't have to compete with whatever music the barista has decided will be the soundtrack for the day.
Tara 'missrogue' Hunt
· 1 year ago
I'd respond to this, but I'm eating with Matthew and drinking loads of beer, so I may turn into a potty mouth myself.
micah
· 1 year ago
Ok ok! I take back some of what I said. True Coworking spaces (focused on the collaboration and community) are a huge boon to our telecommuting, freelancing, displaced workers of todays tech world. My real point (and part of this post was said tongue in cheek. Never expected the response I got) is that people should work in the places that 1) help them produce the best work; and 2) feel great about that work. If that is in a backyard, a coffee shop or a preformed work space, then fantastic.
The boom of "coworking" spaces has included many places (excluding Danny's in Denver, Alex's in Philly and Matthew's in Houston) that really amount to a "business center" rather than a collaborative working space, which is what makes a true coworking space unique.
I also apologize to those I might have directly offended (Matthew, Alex and others), I love the passion you guys put into the things you do, no matter if they dont appeal directly to me.
And yes Tara, you scare me. ;)
Andrew Hyde
· 1 year ago
I love how Tara just has to threaten a comment and Micah steps in line.
micah
· 1 year ago
I love how you run to kiss ass, little mister. :)
missrogue
· 1 year ago
Love you both. xo
Susan Evans
· 1 year ago
Thanks for bringing the heat, Micah. Gotta love it when the coworking community gets all fired up, eh? If nothing else these conversations help us to solidify what we're doing and why we're doing it.
missrogue
· 1 year ago
What your describing, indeed, sucks, but as many have already said...this is not the coworking that we have fostered over the years. I don't know if you know about the value pillars of coworking, but they are:
1. Openness 2. Collaboration 3. Community 4. Sustainability 5. Accessibility
This makes coworking a wider community of intent - the idea isn't to replace coffee shops or your living room even...although for some, they do come for that reason...the idea is to provide spaces for people with common goals to collaborate towards achieving them. I personally own a space, which I'm really proud of. It's a community service. It provides a hub for people from all over the world to come to. I don't think anyone is there for the address or to look like they are more professional. They are there because they support the idea of coworking and for the community. A fringe benefit those who participate get is the ability to collaborate with people who have complimentary talents (i.e. a developer meets a designer or a person with a business idea meets a developer, etc.). That's pretty sweet, too.
But then again, Micah, I know that you just like to stirr up stuff. ;)
micah
· 1 year ago
I didnt know there were coworking "pillars." Interesting.
I guess I am going to start having to do tours of coworking spaces. Most of the spaces I have seen or read about seem to be more about giving the wayward freelancer a place to set their butt and do some work. Collaboration seemed to not occur.
I am happy to welcome that the space you discuss exist, I just havent experienced one yet...
missrogue
· 1 year ago
Well, collaboration does happen...not constantly, but it happens quite a lot. But I think the point to be made is that even though coworking may not be for you, it works for many others. Whatever floats your boat.
T
maxthemonkey
· 1 year ago
ciao micah - I think you need to do some coworking :-)
massimo/cowo milano (italy)
ps - and don't forget to visit us, too!
axon
· 1 year ago
Micah--
I've just done some coworking touring of my own, and I don't think it's fair to say it sucks. To the extent that it is essentially a real estate play, it's likely to suck. To the extent that it's a social capital network with a clubhouse, it's catalyzing.
During my tour last week, I got to visit a number of coworking spaces (including missrogue's Citizen Space; hi Tara ;-)), and the first thing I noticed was that they were, um, uninhabited. There were a couple people intent on task at their desks, some meetings taking place in the conference rooms, but mostly they were sort of empty. This was midday midweek.
And, of course, this began to make sense as I thought about it. I think there are four market segments (for want of a better term) for coworking. 1. Sole proprietors. They may have a bricks and mortar business, or some sort of services business (think financial services, mortgage broker, etc.) 2. Freelancers. Designers, programmers, tech writers, trainers, etc. 3. Remote field force. Sales reps and service techs, deployed in the host market. 4. True entrepreneurs trying to start growth companies.
I think these segments describe a pyramid, with the Sole Proprietors being roughly 40%, Freelancers about 30%, Field Force about 20%, and Entrepreneurs probably less than 10%. And with the exception of the entrepreneurs, most of these folks, if they are to be successful, need to spend most of their time in the field, on the road, or on their clients' premises. As such, they don't have a lot to offer in terms of collaborative energy, so their value within the coworking world is arguably minimal. But they still need the functionality, the fat pipe, the copy machine and the meeting rooms.
It that last segment, the true entrepreneur, who is strategically critical to the success of a coworking scene. Partly because they *need* more than simply a work surface and some technology support; they need a creative milieu inhabited by passionate, creative types to brainstorm with. This is why conventional incubators typically fail; not enough inventive critical mass to provoke breakthrough thinking.
For the typical freelancer, a coworking scene may or may not be suitable depending on whether they're just hired gun contractors or solution synthesizers. If you're just hacking code by the line, you're probably better off at home on your big dev box. If you're just slinging out templatized websites, then no, you're not going to find a genuinely collaborative community a very comfortable place to work.
But if your value to your clientele is your imagination, inventiveness, and ability to repurpose existing tools and techniques into new models, then yeah, it takes more than caffeine to get that done...
One thing I've noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of 2.0 glue to these scenes. My hunch is that a coworking scene that also has a virtual dimension, so that members can strike sparks off each other even when they're not even in the center, will ultimately be the most successful. Because we're net-savvy, and because we do need to be out of the office most of the time to succeed, remote presence is critical, and embryonic, to this model.
Sorry for the long post; just a lot of ideas churning.
All Comments
And I didn't say that freelancers don't do client relations well, but generally, they don't do interpersonal relations well nor do they, generally, enjoy working in large groups or teams. Freelancing carries a bit of ego (no one can do this as well as me, or I don't need the help) which makes group dynamics difficult.
Coworking is an attempt to recreate an office environment in a controlled way. But these are people who say "I can't work in an office." How can coworking help that? It can't.
coworking. and Coworking sucks.
replace the buzzword "coworking" with "outsourced office space management for freelance and small business."
that, you can sell.
replace the buzzword "coworking" with "outsourced office space management for freelance and small business."
that, you can sell.
Secondly, not sure there's much truth in your "truth".
2 - 3. Exactly.
Oh, and lksugarman, I totally ran into that guy in an Italian restaurant in NYC and vowed never to return to the city. I even avoid pasta all together just to make sure I don't run into him again. Glad to hear you are safe now!
coworking is that it is somehow a replacement for collaborative
working (which the name suggests). The truth is most coworking spaces
have become tables and chairs. Maybe a phone and fax, and a conference
room or two.
A true coworking space has a varied group of people that in working
together are better than working apart.
You nailed it! This is exactly the feature that attracts many people, whether they are coworking at a local Jelly or in a dedicated coworking space. And there are spectacular, concrete examples in play right now of the kind of collaborative work that can come out of this environment. It's worth noting that real estate does play a role -- this isn't virtual -- and in some markets (NYC, London) real estate plays a very important role.
http://www.BLANKSPACES.com/interact (also see http://www.flickr.com/photos/27479309@N03/)
http://www.launchpadcoworking.com (opening in September)
http://www.lebu.biz/
The "collaborative" and "community" aspects really kick in two ways, at least for us at BLANKSPACES:
1. We have a slew of events here, some hosted by us; others who rent our space to run their own events/mixers.
2. People here are already HIRING each other. In this way, this is an undisputed scenario in which a variety of people work together better than apart.
Jerome
I know plenty of awkward people who work on teams, and plenty of "God's gift to the universe" people who work on teams, too.
There's no standard profile for the ability to freelance other than your capacity to offer a particular product via contract within a negotiated schedule.
1. The million places that offer free wifi don't have desks. They have couches, they have sofa tables and they have tables, but not a real work environment. Think blaring overhead music, bad lighting, and a struggle to find an electric outlet.
2. My clients have been surprised at the coworking concept and impressed by the forward-thinking nature of it - but then again, you and I might have different types of clients. I aim for the kind of clients who will embrace new technology, new trends and new ideas. You might not, and that's cool too. There's room for both of us.
3. I produce a better product when I'm exposed to more disciplines than just my own. In coffee shops, I'm exposed to mothers with screaming babies, weirdo meetups, and homeless people. Those people do not improve my products. At http://carolinecollective.cc/ I'm exposed to people who are starting businesses, go-getters who are actually going and getting - not just running errands.
The fact of the matter is, IndyHall existed before we had a single desk to share. And if the desks went away, our community of creative collaborators would still exist.
I hope that you get to hang out in a "real deal" coworking community (note, I said community, not office) and then write a new essay of 3 rules of why coworking doesn't suck.
And then, if it doesn't work for you, let us know why. I know it doesn't work for everyone. But it certainly doesn't suck for the 40+ people in philadelphia who use our facility every day, and the dozens of people who've been impacted by a stronger creative community in Philadelphia.
I understand you're on the east coast at the moment. Any interest in swinging by IndyHall to meet the crew? I'd love to go out for a beer and talk shop.
And, of course, I would be willing to eat crow, if there is crow to eat. Frankly, I expect that my mind will not be changed as coworking sucks, whether you call it a community or not.
Drinkers is a deal. Look forward to meeting you in the future.
because I always offered to go to the client versus the opposite.
Clients like the fact that they dont have to travel if possible.
Its not that I am Colorado and you are in NYC, its about how I managed
client interaction. Now, if the clients require seeing your servers,
technology, people, etc. it gets much more difficult (understandably
so), but the important thing to remember is that I am in control, not
the clients.
The boom of "coworking" spaces has included many places (excluding Danny's in Denver, Alex's in Philly and Matthew's in Houston) that really amount to a "business center" rather than a collaborative working space, which is what makes a true coworking space unique.
I also apologize to those I might have directly offended (Matthew, Alex and others), I love the passion you guys put into the things you do, no matter if they dont appeal directly to me.
And yes Tara, you scare me. ;)
1. Openness
2. Collaboration
3. Community
4. Sustainability
5. Accessibility
This makes coworking a wider community of intent - the idea isn't to replace coffee shops or your living room even...although for some, they do come for that reason...the idea is to provide spaces for people with common goals to collaborate towards achieving them. I personally own a space, which I'm really proud of. It's a community service. It provides a hub for people from all over the world to come to. I don't think anyone is there for the address or to look like they are more professional. They are there because they support the idea of coworking and for the community. A fringe benefit those who participate get is the ability to collaborate with people who have complimentary talents (i.e. a developer meets a designer or a person with a business idea meets a developer, etc.). That's pretty sweet, too.
But then again, Micah, I know that you just like to stirr up stuff. ;)
I guess I am going to start having to do tours of coworking spaces.
Most of the spaces I have seen or read about seem to be more about
giving the wayward freelancer a place to set their butt and do some
work. Collaboration seemed to not occur.
I am happy to welcome that the space you discuss exist, I just havent
experienced one yet...
lot. But I think the point to be made is that even though coworking may not
be for you, it works for many others. Whatever floats your boat.
T
massimo/cowo milano (italy)
ps - and don't forget to visit us, too!
I've just done some coworking touring of my own, and I don't think it's fair to say it sucks. To the extent that it is essentially a real estate play, it's likely to suck. To the extent that it's a social capital network with a clubhouse, it's catalyzing.
During my tour last week, I got to visit a number of coworking spaces (including missrogue's Citizen Space; hi Tara ;-)), and the first thing I noticed was that they were, um, uninhabited. There were a couple people intent on task at their desks, some meetings taking place in the conference rooms, but mostly they were sort of empty. This was midday midweek.
And, of course, this began to make sense as I thought about it. I think there are four market segments (for want of a better term) for coworking. 1. Sole proprietors. They may have a bricks and mortar business, or some sort of services business (think financial services, mortgage broker, etc.) 2. Freelancers. Designers, programmers, tech writers, trainers, etc. 3. Remote field force. Sales reps and service techs, deployed in the host market. 4. True entrepreneurs trying to start growth companies.
I think these segments describe a pyramid, with the Sole Proprietors being roughly 40%, Freelancers about 30%, Field Force about 20%, and Entrepreneurs probably less than 10%. And with the exception of the entrepreneurs, most of these folks, if they are to be successful, need to spend most of their time in the field, on the road, or on their clients' premises. As such, they don't have a lot to offer in terms of collaborative energy, so their value within the coworking world is arguably minimal. But they still need the functionality, the fat pipe, the copy machine and the meeting rooms.
It that last segment, the true entrepreneur, who is strategically critical to the success of a coworking scene. Partly because they *need* more than simply a work surface and some technology support; they need a creative milieu inhabited by passionate, creative types to brainstorm with. This is why conventional incubators typically fail; not enough inventive critical mass to provoke breakthrough thinking.
For the typical freelancer, a coworking scene may or may not be suitable depending on whether they're just hired gun contractors or solution synthesizers. If you're just hacking code by the line, you're probably better off at home on your big dev box. If you're just slinging out templatized websites, then no, you're not going to find a genuinely collaborative community a very comfortable place to work.
But if your value to your clientele is your imagination, inventiveness, and ability to repurpose existing tools and techniques into new models, then yeah, it takes more than caffeine to get that done...
One thing I've noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of 2.0 glue to these scenes. My hunch is that a coworking scene that also has a virtual dimension, so that members can strike sparks off each other even when they're not even in the center, will ultimately be the most successful. Because we're net-savvy, and because we do need to be out of the office most of the time to succeed, remote presence is critical, and embryonic, to this model.
Sorry for the long post; just a lot of ideas churning.
--Ax